Actually, you would factually have it in reverse. I say “factually” because your understanding of magic(k) seems to stem from a lesser understanding of the practice itself. This isn’t surprising or a necessarily BAD thing, it’s just common and unfortunate to see in so many people. Magic(k) unlike psionics is not just a “practice.” Magic(k) is a system of beliefs and practices that are adopted by an individual and becomes a way of life. Magic(k) could be more related to Christianity and religion than psionics itself. Now, there is no direct correlation to the two, but Magic(k) is a tool that the individual uses as a means to get closer to the supreme being, God, the creator, or whatever you want to call it.

There are other systems of magic(k) in which this is not the primary goal, but these systems are more narrow, and Psionics is actually one of those practices that fall under this category. The tools used in “psionics” are all incorporated into magic(k)al workings. The difference being, these tools are not sought after for enjoyment and to push the scientific understanding of our time. Psionics is a NEW, and very new term that has only recently been adopted. Psionics actually comes from the scientific study of these unknown elements of magic(k). We call this science Parapsychology. Prior to science catching wind and deciding to research and develop these skills, they were all associated with magic(k) and in effect called such.

Therefore, to say that magic(k) is easier than psionics doesn’t make sense at all. Psionics is a practice where people just come and go and focus on these exercises to develop certain things directly. Even within Magic(k) there are exercises for doing this, but the overall goal is much more advanced. Just like within ritual work many methods are used to achieve a goal. but the overall practice of ritual work is to bring that person closer in alignment with the higher power. To vibrate their energies outward into the universe and it’s different planes.

This really has nothing to do with opinion either. It’s about as true as it gets. There is no relationship to psionics and magic(k) in the sense of them being equal practices. The reason being, psionics is within every system of magic(k), every skill and understanding of psionics falls under magic(k). It’s just not the primary concern.

Now, if you want to analyze it into the different practices OF magic(k) (psionics excluded) then you can closer relate psionics to some other paths. Chaos Magic(k) is a system where the practitioner constantly changes their belief system to achieve a goal. It’s direct and very effective for the practitioner. Psionics is a practice where you try to find the mechanics or best method of getting a goal. And programming energy to achieve a goal is indeed a form of casting in any system of magic(k). *shrugs*

I mean, not sure what else to say to this. I’ve had this debate with so many other people, the most recent being done on NeoPsychics blog. He subsequently closed it after doing the research himself and discovering that what was said was indeed true. I wish he hadn’t done that because he was a great addition within the psionic community, and we could have discussed it further before he did that.

As for Wicca… Wicca is a tradition. It’s literally a religion. Within Wicca magic(k) is incorporated but it’s not the primary focus. Just like Hermeticism, which isn’t a religion though. Blah, okay I’m going to start rambling now. I’m going to post about this next week and I’ll make sure I link to this post on your site if you don’t mind. Just so everyone knows where the inspiration came from :P. I didn’t mean to bash you or anything like that, you’re entitled to your opinions and feelings. It’s just a general topic I feel strongly about and I see the patterns repeated all over the place. Just kind of frustrating, especially when you see how peoples feelings change after they read a few books about magic(k) and do research on various systems of it.

Take Care. Great Post bro :P

Well, I do agree with you about the terminology issue we have. That issue is beyond the OEC though and affects us in everyday life as well. So, it’s not hard to see that. The issue here though, is that you cannot really change the objective meaning of a word to fit in with the subjective nature of our own realities. Spirituality _does_ have various definitions based on different practices, although the common understanding is what we seek out. That understanding being that it is the belief or practice towards a higher power. Religion on the other hand would be a strong belief in the higher practice and _a_ religion would be a group of people sharing the same doctrine of beliefs. I say this because once you grab the objective meaning of a word, you can then see that you can call different things spiritual practices, but you cannot then use spirituality to define an existing practice.

As in, you can call psionics a practice of magic because magics objective understanding is that it is a practice to get closer to the higher power. Psionics, is not by definition related in any way to this pursuit. It is your subjective understanding of psionics that would make this relevant. So it’s virtually impossible to make sense, and come from an understanding of both practices, and then claim that magic is just a practice of skills that fall under the category of psionics. It makes no sense at all :P. It’s kind of confusing, so I’m not entirely sure if I’m communicating it good enough, if I’m not, I’m sorry

So basically, your feelings on the matter of psionics and magic IS true, but only to yourself, and to whom ever else shares similar ideas. Although the true nature of the practices from a more objective stand point are very different. Psionics is _directly_ related to the scientific community. Magic is not. If the scientific community were to never investigate such phenomenon, the underlying practices researched would still to this day fall under the general category of “magic” or “mysticism” like it did for so many years before recently. The second part may be assumption, although psionics being attributed to scientific research is fact, so without trying to use logical fallacies we can safely assume this to be true. I mean, big words aside…

This is a very large debate that will go on for who knows how long. It all depends on your perception really *shrugs* But at the end of the day, does it even matter? I guess to some people. Not so much for me I guess. It’s still something I want to write about though, just because. And I also do agree that we should be working as opposed to debating :P

I fully understand with your point. As for the magic and psionics thing, though. No, using my logic does not mean that, although I can see how you could come to that conclusion. Yes, if science would not have investigated lightning it could still be perceived as being magic, although I’m not quite sure if it ever was considered that, but it is a possibility. Now it is considered electricity. See, this already happened with ACTUAL magic though. Actual skills were investigated and called psionics. This process has already occurred.

If you are looking at actual magic, because now we aren’t all fully stumbling idiots, you can clearly see this connection. It’s in broad day light, and typically the debate rages on with individuals who do not have direct experience with magic, or study in magic systems, namely Hermeticism. So, even though the ideas you got from using my logic would traditionally make sense, in our case it doesn’t apply.

Anyone reading our comments can clearly see the two sides of the argument, it’s not shrouded in rambling and nonsense. My angle is obvious,and more so relevant to those individuals who come from a background of personal experience in such systems. Honestly, there is nothing worth debating if you DID take a few weeks or months to look into different systems. This is true because then you would see first hand that magic is far more than “casting spells” and many of the misconceptions about the practice are due to ignorance and stereotyping. Although, like I said, I can see WHY you feel the way you feel, because I use to come from that same angle. This was, however, BEFORE I immersed myself into other practices and gained a deeper understanding of those practices :) *shrugs* just keep doing what you’re doing bro, this small debate is just wasting space on your site and it will never end, honestly.

But basically, in short what all of this is about is my point of which Psionics is of Magic. This doesn’t go to say that there were not those who existed displaying abilities in Psychokinesis or Clairvoyance, etc.. who were not magicians. This goes to say that the skills of psionics were always considered magic until the scientific community researched specific skills and categorized them as psionics. Psionics is impossible to be magic. Magic in essence is a practice to get one higher to the supreme. Psionics is no such thing, although some may use it for that purpose. Psionics only posses with it the skills that are found within magic but not the key goals found within’ magic. Therefore, you could no more call magic psionics as you could call Christianity, Psionics.

As opposed to using the term “magic” so loosely, for such a debate you would need to specify between systems. Hermeticism in no way could every be equated directly with being psionics. It’s a simple impossibility. Chaos Magic on the other hand is more closely related to it just with a different approach to certain aspects because the system it self was developed to remove the spiritual components of magic (Hermeticism) as much as possible to just get to the nitty-gritty. but even then, different components still remain. *shrugs* now I’m just repeating already stated information. But quick question.

What is Psionics other than a set of different skills categorized under one name?

You inspired me to write a post too, just haven’t gotten around to it :P. I love how that works, lol. I see where you’re coming from. It’s just a different understanding and use of words. Like you said, that terminology issue. The only thing I have complications with is WHY you use some words the way you chose to. Either way, it doesn’t really matter in the end O_o. Like… at all… Good news is we both can get some posts out of this and it did make for a great discussion, even if it was worth nothing more than both of us thinking out loud. :P

Lmfao. I know man :P. Saturday works for me. It’ll probably make for a nice long discussion again ;)

Psionic_X, that’s not true in the least bit. Once again, this depends in general as to the system of Magic being practiced. Rituals are done for various reasons and not the primary means of accomplishing a goal. There are reasons behind doing them. A Christian often goes to Church, Prays out loud, does various prayers for various reasons, but the self belief and faith within the religion is not controlled by all of these rituals, they are just a practice to improve and support their belief. The Rituals in magic are very similar. But anyone who has practiced Magic for a long time, or has read more than a summary of what it “is,” will tell you confidently that the rituals are not even required to do what you can do with them. My biggest issue with this argument is the evident lack of knowledge on your opposition.

I speak from the side of someone who started out at as a meditation fanatic and traditional chi practices, who moved into psionics for years and then on to magic. I don’t claim to be any of the above at this time but I have experience and equal research and study under all of the subjects. Prior to claiming one thing is different or separate from another, doing research is important.

In psionics most of your power comes from your mind, but in magic you also harness external energies. Psionics is free of the various crutches and culture found in magic.

By “power” I mean energy, duh